The next, and I think last example, well maybe not last, example of this, is negotiating with somebody who doesn't care at all about fairness, who will just do whatever it is they can. And to do this let me give you one more prop, so, Dylan mentioned that I am a cereal entrepreneur, that's with a C. >> [LAUGH] >> So this is company called Maker of Idols, that actually now is going to be called New Maid, but that- >> News to me. >> A new story. But at the time, I made a rookie error, which is, I filed for the trademark of Maker Oats. But didn't didn't take the URL, didn't take makeroats.com, and it turns out the moment you file for a trademark, it's public. >> They're right there. >> And there's this guy, Edward Caan is name in Beijing hi, Edward. >> [LAUGH] I've heard about you Ed. [LAUGH] >> Who is watching all of the trademarks that are being filed, and types in the URL, and he buys the website name. >> Yeah and then he's going to- >> And so I write to him and I say dear Edward, I see that you've registered the trademark makeroats.com following my application for the trademark, I take it this was done with the purpose of reselling. My understanding is that under I can domain rules, the dispute policy, this be evidence of registration in bad faith that's it,- >> Is there policies against this and you can appeal- >> You are not allowed to steal somebody's IP, just the way that he did. >> Yeah. >> That's it, I'm willing to purchase makeroats.com from you, however, this is not necessary to my plans. I registered the domain name maker-oats.com, which is easier to read. >> You've registered that before you send this letter. [LAUGH] >> I did. >> Yeah. >> And most people come to websites via search engines rather than typing in the URL. >> So maybe the dash doesn't matter so much. >> Exactly, and also what am I trying to display here? >> A good BATNA. >> Then my BATNA is not desperate, I don't need it at any price he knows I need the name, but I have an alternative that isn't so bad. >> Yeah. >> Now, let's be clear, Edward is not a guy who cares about me and the slide is he's just trying to take me to the cleaners. >> Yeah and he's not caring about pie, or fair division or proportional, he just wants as much as he can, he's gouging here. >> So he writes back to me the next day, and says, dear Nail Buff sorry, we did not know and expect that our domain is related to your trading mark. >> This is email, this is the text, this is it. >> Sorry if it made you feel bad. >> All right. [LAUGH] >> I also found that the dispute process takes very time and cost wasting. >> Okay. >> So here we propose you that we that with $2,500, we can transfer the domain to you kindly let me have your confirmation ASAP. I'm not buying this, that he didn't know at the time, just random chances. >> Sorry buddy. >> Yeah, that that happened. >> I'm doing some oatmeal over here. >> Moreover, I found the dispute process takes time and cost wasting yeah, he's had experience, I guess, it's not his first rodeo. >> Yeah. >> So he's come back to me with $2,500. >> Yeah. >> Note, I did not put a number in the first time. >> Okay. >> I just wanted to establish that I had a pretty good BATNA. >> How much does ICANN process cost? >> So that's the next thing, so I write back to him the next day, dear Edward, I appreciate your concern well, I feel bad that you have the domain, I feel even worse, paying $2,500. I'd rather spend $1,300 and proceed with the ICANN dispute process. As I am the legal owner of the trademark, my lawyer assures me that I will prevail, while the process takes time I have maker-oats.com to employ in the meantime. As I wrote before, most people come to websites via search engines rather than typing in the URL so the maker oats name, which is hard to read, is not so valuable. Based on your $2,500 asking price, if I proceed with the ICANN process, I will save money, and you will end up with nothing. Thus I suggest you accept $500, if you truly feel bad, this should more than cover your costs, and if you don't feel bad, then I'm prepared to employ the dispute process. >> So yeah, the ICANN process takes time but being storted is painful too, so [LAUGH] like $1,300 you can get this done >> Absolutely, and in fact, actually, I think I'd probably get some satisfaction out of that. >> Yeah. >> So he writes me back the exact same day, and- >> You're being very polite up to now you're not calling him an extortionist, you're not- >> Although I did say, if you're not going to feel sorry. >> Yeah. >> So he writes me back, dear Nail Buff thank you for your quick response sorry that 500 is too low for me, considering the dispute cost and time I kindly suggest that we meet up at USD 1,100, $1,100. I'm leave in for my vacation from nine one- >> He's always in a hurry. >> Can you please confirm me ASAP. [LAUGH] >> So, what I've done here so far, is to get him below $1,300. I made it clear that we were never going to go about that. So forget about your $2,500 that just irrelevant is- >> And one email, he's just come down by 1,400 bucks. >> Yes. >> So keep pushing. >> Really in the sense that we're never going to go anything above 1,300. >> Yeah and now it's time to bring out the pie. So up to now, I haven't done it I always had to plan for this next email from day one. >> So it's like a concession almost in his mind maybe >> Well what is the pie in my view is $1,300, and therefore, I should be 650, he should be 650. >> But don't start with- >> But if I start with 650, then he think there's room to go, so that's why I picked the number below 500, so I write dear Edward, here's how I see things. Avoiding the I can dispute process will save me $1,300, that is what is available to share between you and me, and your proposal of $1,100 I would end up only $200 ahead and you would end up 1,100 ahead. That doesn't sound fair to me, it'd be like my offering you 200, and keeping the $900 savings for myself. I'm willing to split the savings evenly with you 650, 650, but that's as far, as I will go. That is I'll pay you 650, that will leave you 650 ahead of where you'd end up if I pursued the dispute process, and I will end up 650 head. What I've done is I've explained to them carefully there's $1,300 is what's there divide, and that what he's proposed is something that- >> You wouldn't do to him. >> And- >> Not just a not extorting part but just here's a $1,300, I'm not trying to take two-thirds of it, I'm not giving you two-thirds of it half. >> So he writes me back again the same day, dear Nail Buff, thank you for your reply then let's meet up at $900 this is my final price. I think if you cannot accept this price, we have no choice, kindly understand that my original price was $2,500, I am leaving very soon so let's seal the deal have a good weekend. So what has he done? Well, if you take the 1,100 that his last number, and minus 650, and you average them, you get 875. So essentially what he's trying to do is to get me to meet in the middle. >> What was his offer, I forget 900? >> He started off at 2,500, then he went to 11, and now he's at 900. >> So he's rounding up, he's splitting the difference, and keeping the change. He's running after 25 bucks, and essentially, his view is that procedure might be fair. Now, the question is, how do I respond to this $1,100? >> I know the answer. >> You know the answer and the answer is, I don't respond. Because I think I've made a proposal that is fair, and- >> And his BATNA is zero. >> Yeah. >> [LAUGH] >> And I don't know why I should be up 400 and he should be up 1,100, especially that I don't like this person. >> Right. >> And so, I am willing to be flexible, if somebody gives me a reason to be flexible, but I don't think you should give up on principles. >> Like Black Friday's around the corner, I'll give you a deal but give me some principled argument here, other than more. Or that somehow you were at this number I'm at that number we met in the middle, you move more from 2,500 than I move from 500 well 2,500 was bogus. >> Yeah, that's splitting the difference, if we don't advocate that's a totally different concept than splitting the pie. The pie is the unique value add that we bring together, perhaps let's split that, but splitting the difference if you're being reasonable to start and he is extorting and being crazy, then meeting him half way is half crazy- >> [LAUGH] Fully crazy. >> Fully crazy yeah, so yeah don't split the difference, yeah. >> And so September third he writes back- >> So you just radio silence. >> Radio silence, email silence, hello, we decided to accept your offer of 650, can you kindly let me know your escrow.com account? >> Done? >> Done. >> So you pay him? >> So I paid him, I got the URL, and life is good. >> New name coming, what was it real? >> The new name is Real Made. >> I'm sure there's a website that you already have. [LAUGH] >> I have realmade.com, you better believe it. >> [LAUGH] No hyphens. >> Yeah, and the answer is that we had sold this company, to a large consumer products, and then we ended up buying it back. In the process of buying it back,- >> You have a new partner. >> Well, part of the deal was, we take a new name. >> Awesome. >> Now, there's one thing I didn't do right that, that I believe I should have done better. >> A little investigating. >> Yeah, so one of the things Daly is fond of saying is that if I had all your information, you'd be the one who'd really- >> Pricier sheet I win. >> The other thing that people don't know is imagine what about my own information? And people don't really do as much as they should in terms of prepairing for negotiation. So I prepared enough in the sense I knew ICANN process was, I knew how much it cost, I knew it's going to win, but actually a quick bed search would have shown me, that over the last two years, this guy had gone to ICANN three times and lost. >> So ICANN, I see, so it's a data base of- >> All the dispute out there- >> because he has done this before. >> Yeah he lost to Unipol group, he lost to IOs, he lost to Succo pharmaceuticals, and not only did he lose, when you look at the case, the respondent did not reply to the complainant contentions. So basically, he doesn't even try, when those cases go up to ICANN, because he knows he's going to lose, and therefore I could have added and by the way, I know costs $3,900. I also know, that all the cases brought against you, you don't even get zero, you basically didn't even try because you knew you had no case. And I'm not sure I needed to throw out all those guns, but I should have known that. >> You could say justice will prevail, I'll feel really good about that, that will almost entirely compensate me for the process of the time, I'll offer you $100 if you accept within 24 hours, I'm going on a vacation, please respond right now. [LAUGH] >> And by the way the before names now in that list I had in terms of recent losses that you've had. >> It's a precedent for him it gets him a win. >> Yes. >> [LAUGH] >> Okay, so and here again one of the lessons is, does this guy care about fairness at all? >> I see- >> Zippo. >> Zip. >> But what he does care is what I think, and if he thinks I'm not going to pay more than 650 because I care about fairness- >> You've drawn a principle line in the sand and whether he respects that principle or not he knows that you do. >> Correct. >> And it should ring a little bit a true to him. [LAUGH] >> I think it's an issue even if he does not care about fairness he is happy to take advantage of me as much as he can. The fact is that as long as believes I'm not going to pay more than 650. >> And I believe that 100%, right? I mean, you would know you would have just said dude, you ain't getting nothing now. [LAUGH] >> Yeah, because then I couldn't tell the story. >> [LAUGH] Yeah, also you just would have been so angry. It's like dude, I'm giving you 650, I don't have to give you anything. >> I don't like to be treated unfairly. >> Yeah. >> And so in that sense, I might have just gotten my back out. And by the way, we have all sorts of examples of this, if we look at capuchin monkeys, they are totally happy to work for cucumbers. But if they see the- >> Grapes. [LAUGH] >> They see exactly, if they see the monkey next I'm getting paid grapes, they start throwing the cucumbers at the cage. And it's like well, cucumbers were okay but grapes are amazing and if that one's getting grapes- >> Yeah. >> I'm not playing this. >> We have this amazing capuchin monkey lab here on campus with colleagues that do research on how monkeys think about division in fairness. >> And the truth is, we're evolutionary, that part of our brain has stayed the same. >> It's a very old part of our brain. >> And therefore to the extent we see and feel ourselves being treated unfairly, we just shut down. So that's why I think we want to get a sense of what fairness is, and how to make sure that each of us are been treated fairly and in particular the notion of fairness shouldn't depend, on which side we're on. So the example, one ping pong ball or two, or I honestly with VW and Ford, the answer is when I say this is fair, my argument is you work just as well no matter which side we're on. >> It's important that you're not saying, I'm going to take 90%, take it or leave it, take the crumb zero, your rational take the crumb. I mean there's some force there but it's kind of insincere in the fall, there's no principle there. >> Exactly other than you're, you're saying me take an unfair thing and I'd say, well, why not flip it? Why not do it 10, 90. >> But if you describe to the other side hey, I'm giving you half, I'm asking for half not a penny more, I think that the threat of walking away from that division just seems much more real. Would I really demand 90%? I mean, would I take 80? But if I'm asking for half, I think he probably knew, I mean, I guess he did know he took it. But he knows if he pushes much, much more, you're going to get angry at this at some point.